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	<title>Comments on: No Street Food For You. Or You. Or you or you or yoo-oh.</title>
	<atom:link href="http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/</link>
	<description>You can pry my burrito out of my cold, dead hand.</description>
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		<title>By: Johnathan Lucario</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-6057</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Johnathan Lucario]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Jul 2010 05:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-6057</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well thought, unique take on this topic.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well thought, unique take on this topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Caroline</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-577</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Caroline]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Apr 2009 15:52:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In the other cities, the limit is mostly 500 feet -- but as I said, the law applies to vastly more locations. So their maps would show smaller donuts, but many more of them.

It&#039;s not my law; it&#039;s a city law, passed under the standard, legitimate, open public process (despite the misinformation given by the truck&#039;s lawyer at the hearing -- and I heard him take an oath to tell the truth, too -- I&#039;m shocked, shocked!). 

I wouldn&#039;t kick up a huge fuss if a compromise of some kind were worked out -- but then, I do look at those statistics on the John O&#039;Connell students&#039; rate of passing the state fitness tests (the ones Dana Woldow was so mocked for bringing up) and have to wonder.

This single truck isn&#039;t my focus, though. The barrage of blog protests about the truck has  included a whole lot of mockery of the entire concept -- you are an exception, johnnyO, and I appreciate that -- including lots of &quot;f*** obese youth -- let them take personal responsibility&quot; sneering. That&#039;s when I find it worth the effort to keep up with the blogs and post some factual comment.

Two threads on this topic on the EaterSF blog were taken down entirely, presumably because the flaming (of Dana Woldow and me, both volunteer parents who are longtime children&#039;s health advocates) got so nasty. 

I would really dispute that I&#039;m being so dogmatic. People who are so fixated on this cause that they think it&#039;s legitimate to mock and sneer at concerns over the childhood obesity crisis that&#039;s ravaging the Latino and Black communities -- and I include the SF Weekly&#039;s food blogger in that description -- would seem to be the ones who would benefit from broadening their perspectives.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the other cities, the limit is mostly 500 feet &#8212; but as I said, the law applies to vastly more locations. So their maps would show smaller donuts, but many more of them.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not my law; it&#8217;s a city law, passed under the standard, legitimate, open public process (despite the misinformation given by the truck&#8217;s lawyer at the hearing &#8212; and I heard him take an oath to tell the truth, too &#8212; I&#8217;m shocked, shocked!). </p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t kick up a huge fuss if a compromise of some kind were worked out &#8212; but then, I do look at those statistics on the John O&#8217;Connell students&#8217; rate of passing the state fitness tests (the ones Dana Woldow was so mocked for bringing up) and have to wonder.</p>
<p>This single truck isn&#8217;t my focus, though. The barrage of blog protests about the truck has  included a whole lot of mockery of the entire concept &#8212; you are an exception, johnnyO, and I appreciate that &#8212; including lots of &#8220;f*** obese youth &#8212; let them take personal responsibility&#8221; sneering. That&#8217;s when I find it worth the effort to keep up with the blogs and post some factual comment.</p>
<p>Two threads on this topic on the EaterSF blog were taken down entirely, presumably because the flaming (of Dana Woldow and me, both volunteer parents who are longtime children&#8217;s health advocates) got so nasty. </p>
<p>I would really dispute that I&#8217;m being so dogmatic. People who are so fixated on this cause that they think it&#8217;s legitimate to mock and sneer at concerns over the childhood obesity crisis that&#8217;s ravaging the Latino and Black communities &#8212; and I include the SF Weekly&#8217;s food blogger in that description &#8212; would seem to be the ones who would benefit from broadening their perspectives.</p>
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		<title>By: johnny0</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-575</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnny0]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 19:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-575</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I expect San Francisco to have better, smarter laws than other cities. (Though  I am surprised that catering trucks are allowed outside elementary schools during the start and end of the school day.)

What are the distances for those other cities? 

You are sticking to your line, and I mine -- the difference between a truck like El Tonayense and those that prey upon innocent children is rather clear. Your law is too vast, too wide.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I expect San Francisco to have better, smarter laws than other cities. (Though  I am surprised that catering trucks are allowed outside elementary schools during the start and end of the school day.)</p>
<p>What are the distances for those other cities? </p>
<p>You are sticking to your line, and I mine &#8212; the difference between a truck like El Tonayense and those that prey upon innocent children is rather clear. Your law is too vast, too wide.</p>
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		<title>By: Caroline</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-573</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Caroline]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-573</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All this flap inspired a lot of research on the laws in other cities. Currently, we&#039;ve found 24 California cities besides SF that have these restrictions. (So far.) So, this is a completely normal, routine, run-of-the-mill city law, not some kind of &quot;only in San Francisco&quot; item. And in L.A., there are ongoing controversies over taco trucks selling outside schools.

All 24 of those cities that restrict mobile food vendors include public elementary schools, unlike SF, and a number of them include private schools and preschools. Some include parks and other recreation facilities too. So, if you wanted to model the law after what&#039;s commonly done in other cities, it would likely be more restrictive. 

Re what kids are doing off school grounds: In high schools, some are open campuses. Some are open under certain circumstances, such as to seniors who maintain a certain GPA, sometimes one or two days a week.

The SF law doesn&#039;t include elementary schools on the basis that elementary students remain in one class with one teacher all day and are under close supervision all day, including moving around the school halls. By middle school, and in closed-campus high schools, students move from class to class without close supervision and generally have more freedom of movement. Teens are not automatons. The temptation and ability to dart off campus do exist, and the lure of a food truck outside the door makes that more likely.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All this flap inspired a lot of research on the laws in other cities. Currently, we&#8217;ve found 24 California cities besides SF that have these restrictions. (So far.) So, this is a completely normal, routine, run-of-the-mill city law, not some kind of &#8220;only in San Francisco&#8221; item. And in L.A., there are ongoing controversies over taco trucks selling outside schools.</p>
<p>All 24 of those cities that restrict mobile food vendors include public elementary schools, unlike SF, and a number of them include private schools and preschools. Some include parks and other recreation facilities too. So, if you wanted to model the law after what&#8217;s commonly done in other cities, it would likely be more restrictive. </p>
<p>Re what kids are doing off school grounds: In high schools, some are open campuses. Some are open under certain circumstances, such as to seniors who maintain a certain GPA, sometimes one or two days a week.</p>
<p>The SF law doesn&#8217;t include elementary schools on the basis that elementary students remain in one class with one teacher all day and are under close supervision all day, including moving around the school halls. By middle school, and in closed-campus high schools, students move from class to class without close supervision and generally have more freedom of movement. Teens are not automatons. The temptation and ability to dart off campus do exist, and the lure of a food truck outside the door makes that more likely.</p>
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		<title>By: chunkee</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-571</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[chunkee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 16:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-571</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My right to eat is being infringed upon with this stupidity.

The area outside a school shouldn&#039;t fall under different laws and you can be sure that this is a field day for lawyers at the cost of businesses and the public tax dollars.

WTF are kids doing off school grounds anyway ?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My right to eat is being infringed upon with this stupidity.</p>
<p>The area outside a school shouldn&#8217;t fall under different laws and you can be sure that this is a field day for lawyers at the cost of businesses and the public tax dollars.</p>
<p>WTF are kids doing off school grounds anyway ?</p>
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		<title>By: johnny0</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-570</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnny0]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Apr 2009 00:06:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[πr2 illustrates the problem.

3x the radius means 9x the area affected.  A 1500 foot radius is over a quarter square mile of area. A 500 foot radius is 0.03 square miles.

While 1500 feet may work in the desert, it&#039;s overkill given San Francisco&#039;s population density of 16,000 people per square mile (and upwards of 30,000 per square mile in the Mission). 

I&#039;d be fine with a 500 foot limit around schools to avoid the predatory trucks, with some a reasonable amendment for &quot;adult&quot; taco trucks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>πr2 illustrates the problem.</p>
<p>3x the radius means 9x the area affected.  A 1500 foot radius is over a quarter square mile of area. A 500 foot radius is 0.03 square miles.</p>
<p>While 1500 feet may work in the desert, it&#8217;s overkill given San Francisco&#8217;s population density of 16,000 people per square mile (and upwards of 30,000 per square mile in the Mission). </p>
<p>I&#8217;d be fine with a 500 foot limit around schools to avoid the predatory trucks, with some a reasonable amendment for &#8220;adult&#8221; taco trucks.</p>
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		<title>By: Caroline</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Caroline]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:31:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-567</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As noted, the red circles are much more numerous in (what turns out to be) the many other cities that have ordinances restricting mobile food vendors. All those cities include public elementary schools, and some include private schools, preschools, parks and recreation areas too. So if SF had modeled its ordinance after one of those other cities&#039; (which would be a normal, commonplace and reasonable way to make legislation) -- I can&#039;t even begin to keep track of the number of schools it would apply to. Sanchez, Marshall, Flynn, Chavez, Moscone, St. Paul, Immaculate Conception, more small parochial schools that I&#039;m sure I&#039;m not aware of, Synergy, Katherine Michiels, Friends -- the doughnut would be smaller, but there would be infinitely more of them. So I&#039;m not clear why that would appear to be preferable to you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As noted, the red circles are much more numerous in (what turns out to be) the many other cities that have ordinances restricting mobile food vendors. All those cities include public elementary schools, and some include private schools, preschools, parks and recreation areas too. So if SF had modeled its ordinance after one of those other cities&#8217; (which would be a normal, commonplace and reasonable way to make legislation) &#8212; I can&#8217;t even begin to keep track of the number of schools it would apply to. Sanchez, Marshall, Flynn, Chavez, Moscone, St. Paul, Immaculate Conception, more small parochial schools that I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;m not aware of, Synergy, Katherine Michiels, Friends &#8212; the doughnut would be smaller, but there would be infinitely more of them. So I&#8217;m not clear why that would appear to be preferable to you.</p>
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		<title>By: johnny0</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnny0]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amend the ordinance to something reasonable given there seems little chance to get exemptions, you bet.

Once again, I have no issue with a reasonable ordinance keeping predatory food trucks away from school entrances, which seems to be the case in most other cities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amend the ordinance to something reasonable given there seems little chance to get exemptions, you bet.</p>
<p>Once again, I have no issue with a reasonable ordinance keeping predatory food trucks away from school entrances, which seems to be the case in most other cities.</p>
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		<title>By: Caroline</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-563</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Caroline]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:00:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Palm Desert is only one of the several cities; note the list of five I originally appended (and I  learned that Monterey and Salinas have similar laws too). 

And all of them include elementary schools (of which SFUSD has around 75); some include private schools and all preschools too. At least one includes parks and other recreational facilities too. Thus their 500-food limits are around far more sites, which  would be far more restrictive than the law San Francisco currently has (1,500-food limit, but around far fewer sites. 

It looks like your crusade was initially to exempt that one El Tonayense truck from the law and has now evolved to &quot;change the law.&quot; 

By the way, I wasn&#039;t trying to accuse you of deliberate dishonestly with the red donuts. 

New post -- setting the record straight on various  misconceptions and misstatements in the taco truck fracas:

http://tinyurl.com/dz6b72]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Palm Desert is only one of the several cities; note the list of five I originally appended (and I  learned that Monterey and Salinas have similar laws too). </p>
<p>And all of them include elementary schools (of which SFUSD has around 75); some include private schools and all preschools too. At least one includes parks and other recreational facilities too. Thus their 500-food limits are around far more sites, which  would be far more restrictive than the law San Francisco currently has (1,500-food limit, but around far fewer sites. </p>
<p>It looks like your crusade was initially to exempt that one El Tonayense truck from the law and has now evolved to &#8220;change the law.&#8221; </p>
<p>By the way, I wasn&#8217;t trying to accuse you of deliberate dishonestly with the red donuts. </p>
<p>New post &#8212; setting the record straight on various  misconceptions and misstatements in the taco truck fracas:</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/dz6b72" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/dz6b72</a></p>
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		<title>By: johnny0</title>
		<link>http://burritojustice.com/2009/04/06/no-street-food-for-you-or-you-or-you-or-you-or-yoo-oh/#comment-561</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[johnny0]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Apr 2009 07:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://burritojustice.wordpress.com/?p=1815#comment-561</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My apologies Caroline -- your comment on the CA distances got caught up in the Wordpress spam filter (pretty much guaranteed if you have more than two links). I approved it -- ironically after I posted the above link -- but still don&#039;t see it.

But I think it goes to prove my point -- I&#039;d be happy with a 500 foot ban to keep trucks of ill intent from swarming the school doors.  but 1500 feet is too much.  Palm Desert = DESERT.  Lots of space, not like SF, one of the most densely populated cities in the US.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My apologies Caroline &#8212; your comment on the CA distances got caught up in the WordPress spam filter (pretty much guaranteed if you have more than two links). I approved it &#8212; ironically after I posted the above link &#8212; but still don&#8217;t see it.</p>
<p>But I think it goes to prove my point &#8212; I&#8217;d be happy with a 500 foot ban to keep trucks of ill intent from swarming the school doors.  but 1500 feet is too much.  Palm Desert = DESERT.  Lots of space, not like SF, one of the most densely populated cities in the US.</p>
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